A Canadian Pro Rugby League is Required NOW

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A Canadian Pro Rugby League is Required NOW

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Posted 7 months ago
Moosehead
Member

Popo said:
.... I will pay for concession items at these games but not an entry fee.

Problem with that is if this proposed pro rugby league plays out of public facilities then the owners may demand all or a good part of the concession revenue. I think the City of Burnaby (owner of Swanguard) took a lot of the concession revenue when the Whitecaps were operating out of Swanguard. The Whitecaps obtained their revenue from ticket sales and other sources. I am not sure how much if anything was made from concession revenue.

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
Popo
Member

Moosehead said:
Problem with that is if this proposed pro rugby league plays out of public facilities then the owners may demand all or a good part of the concession revenue. I think the City of Burnaby (owner of Swanguard) took a lot of the concession revenue when the Whitecaps were operating out of Swanguard. The Whitecaps obtained their revenue from ticket sales and other sources. I am not sure how much if anything was made from concession revenue.

It is not a problem as a pro team is not a club side and I would pay money for a ticket. Moosehead you need to read what I said.

FYI Moosehead... BC place is a public facility as well and I do believe both the Caps and Lions get a cut of concession revenues.

Rugby Pro or Semi pro sides might have to learn how to share if they ever come into being in Canada.

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
Scrum2
Member

Forget about the Pro league until the CIS wakes up and adds Men's Rugby to the national level of University Sports. Forget about the inequality of the number of female athletes to male - football obviously skews the numbers.
University Rugby programs which help develop our national players ie Conor Trainor are grossly under-funded, scramble to afford uniforms and charge all their players fees for the privilege of representing their respective universities. They are usually allocated some backfield away from the stands, the crowds, and the interest. And make no mistake, this is great amateur Canadian Rugby.
Until the feeders are addressed their is no point talking about Pro teams.

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
Bandito
Member

Scrum2 said:
Forget about the Pro league until the CIS wakes up and adds Men's Rugby to the national level of University Sports. Forget about the inequality of the number of female athletes to male - football obviously skews the numbers.
University Rugby programs which help develop our national players ie Conor Trainor are grossly under-funded, scramble to afford uniforms and charge all their players fees for the privilege of representing their respective universities. They are usually allocated some backfield away from the stands, the crowds, and the interest. And make no mistake, this is great amateur Canadian Rugby.
Until the feeders are addressed their is no point talking about Pro teams.

So because this will "almost" never happen, does this mean a (semi) pro league in Canada will "definitely" never happen by this logic. The gender equality issue will never change. ... unless the powers that be decide that Sevens is the way to go and both men's and women's sevens are adopted (at the expense of XVs for both, and to bring in another women's team sport to make up the numbers). Wasn't there a CIS sevens tournament this year / last? Adopting it instead certainly won't help the cause for improving XVs!

I was thinking yesterday, however... what if men's rugby did have CIS status. Then they'd be bound by eligibility rules. Maybe it wouldn't affect a lot of players, but guys would be cut off at five years and have to sit out a year for transfers. Where would that put UVIC? ;)

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
Scrum2
Member

It's interesting that people are often quick to dismiss what's not going to happen, rather than concentrate on what needs to happen.
Equality isn't always about numbers. If there was an argument for women to make up the numbers from Men's Football at the CIS level then that would be fair and equal - there simply is not. To essentially penalize Men's Rugby by not having rugby at the CIS level makes no sense at all. Perhaps we should start looking at music and theatrics and the funding they receive at Universities and make sure that male/female ratios are equal - where do you draw the line? At present Women have 11 CIS sports and Men have only 10. To me that is inequality.

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
Harry Craig
Member

I agree 100% that a pro league would be a great thing for Canadian Rugby. I just don't think that right now there is any chance of making it work financially. I am rugby mad and if I win a huge lottery I might try to start up such a league, but the financial models suggested by Moosehead won't work. Starting a pro league that failed would hurt Canadian rugby immensely. If I'm wrong and they will work someone with money and business sense will come along and try it. I hope I am proved wrong but let's be realists here. Let's do all we can to make the CRC successful because it is a great competition but baby steps people and hope I win that lottery because I will then be willing to throw money away, not now when I have to work hard for it. The CRC can slowly expand and grow to a semi-pro league and maybe someday along way down the road fully professional, but for now our success lies with getting as many guys as possible playing pro overseas and not at second divisional level but in the premier leagues. Go Canada go. I will buy a lottery ticket at the airport when I get home on October 25, wish me luck.

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
Popo
Member

Harry Craig said:
but for now our success lies with getting as many guys as possible playing pro overseas and not at second divisional level but in the premier leagues. Go Canada go. I will buy a lottery ticket at the airport when I get home on October 25, wish me luck.

How has this worked for Canada so far?

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
Moosehead
Member

Same old same old, we need a pro league. We can't wait much longer. It has been 16 years since a lot of countries clubs turned professional.

Not only is pro rugby needed for high performance rugby in Canada but for recreational rugby as well. BCRN is reporting that some view the decline of BC club rugby to the mixing of recreational and high performance rugby at the club level and that a full time league outside of the recreational club structure is required (i.e. semi-professional/professional).

My idea will improve both high performance rugby and club rugby and if done properly will have a 75/100 chance of success vs. Harry's idea that will have a chance of success of 1/50000000.

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
wayner
Member

How can we support our own pro league when nations like Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy cannot and have to join together? Italy and Scotland only have two teams each.

The best way to to this is to have a North American league where we each have about 4 teams. But I am skeptical that this would be able to survive - don't forget that Canada has very few pro soccer teams and for many years we only had 6 pro hockey teams and some of them just barely survived.

Posted 7 months ago #
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Posted 7 months ago
John
Member

There are 60 franchise teams in the Canadian Hockey League (CHL).

It is a junior league and athletes are paid about $200.00 per month in free spending money. The billets are paid about $350.00 per month to cover food and lodging for the players plus 2 free seasons' tickets for the billets. Each player in the league is entitled to 1 year of free schooling (High School/College/University) for every year they play in the league.

Something similar could be set up with a 6/8 team junior rugby league in the Lower Mainland.

Posted 7 months ago #
Popo
Member

The lower Mainland could not support 6-8 professional franchises for Rugby, 3 tops, most likely two (Vancouver, Fraser Valley and maybe a team out of North/West Van) The market for rugby and the player pool is just too small. That is even if you are selecting players from across Canada.

The Island could support 2 more franchises (Victoria and Nanaimo)

You could have 1 or 2 on the west coast of the states.

Of course to start it would most likely be a semi-pro setup.

A 6 team Pacific coast league would be a pretty good start.

Posted 7 months ago #
Son of Heavy
Member

CANADIAN PRESS EXCLUSIVE
By Son of Heavy
October 18, 2010

KERRISDALE - Commissioner Harry Craig announced today the inaugural teams for the new national professional rugby association.

The teams will be situated as follows:

Western Conference

Pacific Division

The Vancouver Poachers (nee Meralomas)
The Fraser Valley Sloped Foreheads (Home games to be split between the Mirage Night Club in Guilford or abbyhalfback's back yard)
The South Island Importers
The North Island Crumbling Rugby Infrastructures
The Okanagan Converted Football Players

Great Plains Division

The Calgary No Girls Allowed Club
The Edmonton Sluggos
The Regina Agents-of-Change I (nee the Quick 'Fix'ers)
The Saskatoon Tkachuk Stays Home (So Frank Walsh can go on a three week holiday)
The Manitoba Who Cares

Eastern Conference

Centre Of The Universe Division

The West of the Lakes Forgotten Folk (Possible merger with Manitoba mid season)
The Toronto Money Draining Six Team Facilities
The Toronto Annual Competition Changers
The Toronto No Thanks We'll Join The League Five Years Laters
The Richmond Hill Meat Raffles
The Richmond Hill Pub Nights
The Richmond Hill Tell Your Friends About Rugby Facebook Groups
The Ajax Hairy Harry's (aka Biking bandits)
The London Banana Throwers
The Ottawa Ministers Of Defence
The Kingston No Where To Plays
The Windsor Sexy Ghosts

'Newfoundland Division' I
The Province of Quebec Bilingual Language police (Referees must shout instructions in both official languages. Roll Away becomes 'Fermez la porte'. and Try Given becomes 'Ou Est La Bibliotheque?)
The Nova Scotia Morgan Williams' Altered Kit Bags
The New Brunswick Simon Pacey beat Jebb/Chauncey to a Cap?
The PEI Ace of Spades (What's better than than One Club?)

Newfoundland Division II
The Rock Maritime Provinces
The Rock Send Them As Team Canada
The Rock West Coasters (Led by White/Wish/Webb)
The St. John's Agents-Of-Change II (kind of like having two roughriders in a league! pure canadiana!)

Commissioner Craig gives the league 2 months before it folds or geraint john fires everyone and takes over.

Posted 7 months ago #
Juniorcoach
Member

I see many good ideas coming out of this thread. As much as I agree with the idea of a pro/semi-pro league, I just feel that at this point the "culture" (apart from a few spots in Canada) isn't quite there yet. Rugby is still a "fringe" sport in most, if not all parts in the country. We compete against our two national sports for players as well as football, and well, football. I feel that continuing with the CRC is 'probably' a good thing but realize that this should constantly tweaked as time progresses. What "we" really have to look at is enlisting more junior players in order to fill in these competitions! Five years ago I talked to somebody within the Waratahs organization (Academy coach) and he predicted the "end" of men's senior rugby in Australia within 25 years. (Or if not the end then certainly a lessened focus on Senior programs). I scoffed at him! Yet now I see what he was referring to. More and more international/professional players are being identified at younger age-grades. If we were to look back 10 or 20 years ago, how many u21 players were not just making the leap but already superstars? Compare this to the situation now that the big nations have. The situation that Canada faces is that many of these players come to "us" in their early 20's with a fairly limited exposure to a high level of competition and coaching.
Essentially what the major rugby nations are doing is exactly what we do in hockey. Indoctrinate the kids into the culture, make it their chosen sport and provide quality programs and competitions for them to excel at and strive for.
For too long "we" have focused on men's programs with the junior aspect of rugby being somewhat a sideshow within the club structure.
I think that the idea of a Pacific coast league Junior league is something that has merit, as well as incorporating the concept of billets throughout the season. (As much as I loathe the idea of sending more players to the Lower mainland!)
So, keep up the good ideas ladies and gentlemen!
Ps.
The exposure that the 2011 RWC team has gained across the country has done wonders for elevating our sport. "My" kids are taking an interest in their country finally and many now have aspirations to try and make the leap! I'm not sure if any other Junior coaches have FB pages or forums, but the guys were writing about the squad hourly. Has anybody else out there seen similar reactions from their players as well?

Posted 7 months ago #
bisquit
Member

Son of Heavy said:
CANADIAN PRESS EXCLUSIVE
By Son of Heavy
October 18, 2010

KERRISDALE - Commissioner Harry Craig announced today the inaugural teams for the new national professional rugby association.

The teams will be situated as follows:

Western Conference

Pacific Division

The Vancouver Poachers (nee Meralomas)
The Fraser Valley Sloped Foreheads (Home games to be split between the Mirage Night Club in Guilford or abbyhalfback's back yard)
The South Island Importers
The North Island Crumbling Rugby Infrastructures
The Okanagan Converted Football Players

Great Plains Division

The Calgary No Girls Allowed Club
The Edmonton Sluggos
The Regina Agents-of-Change I (nee the Quick 'Fix'ers)
The Saskatoon Tkachuk Stays Home (So Frank Walsh can go on a three week holiday)
The Manitoba Who Cares

Eastern Conference

Centre Of The Universe Division

The West of the Lakes Forgotten Folk (Possible merger with Manitoba mid season)
The Toronto Money Draining Six Team Facilities
The Toronto Annual Competition Changers
The Toronto No Thanks We'll Join The League Five Years Laters
The Richmond Hill Meat Raffles
The Richmond Hill Pub Nights
The Richmond Hill Tell Your Friends About Rugby Facebook Groups
The Ajax Hairy Harry's (aka Biking bandits)
The London Banana Throwers
The Ottawa Ministers Of Defence
The Kingston No Where To Plays
The Windsor Sexy Ghosts

'Newfoundland Division' I
The Province of Quebec Bilingual Language police (Referees must shout instructions in both official languages. Roll Away becomes 'Fermez la porte'. and Try Given becomes 'Ou Est La Bibliotheque?)
The Nova Scotia Morgan Williams' Altered Kit Bags
The New Brunswick Simon Pacey beat Jebb/Chauncey to a Cap?
The PEI Ace of Spades (What's better than than One Club?)

Newfoundland Division II
The Rock Maritime Provinces
The Rock Send Them As Team Canada
The Rock West Coasters (Led by White/Wish/Webb)
The St. John's Agents-Of-Change II (kind of like having two roughriders in a league! pure canadiana!)

Commissioner Craig gives the league 2 months before it folds or geraint john fires everyone and takes over.

Posted 7 months ago #
rugbyfan07
Member

I agree we need a semi pro / pro league. Especially with all this positive exposure coming out from the RWC. What I see as the most logical first step is a national junior league, which should be run similar to that of junior football. We need to start making junior rugby the sport of choice over football. If rugby Canada can't get this going maybe we need to own teams ourselves. Just like the greenbay packers are Community owned

Posted 7 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

Son of a gun you forgot the Richmond Heavies.

Posted 7 months ago #
winger14
Moderator

Heavy that was a post worthy of your father...

Winger14

Posted 7 months ago #
abbyhalfback
Member

Heavy, my backyard is unavailable in the summer months as I rent it out to softball during the week and Kabudi on the weekends.

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Posted 7 months ago #
oldmanrugby
Member

Son of Heavy, that was a great post!
I've re-read 3X now, and it doesn't get any less funny.
We should make a forum for best posts ever.

Posted 7 months ago #
Juniorcoach
Member

Wow...

Posted 7 months ago #
Hollywood
Member

I have posted my thoughts before but IMO a pro league would have to be in conjunction with the USA. Ireland only has 4 teams, Scotland 2, etc.

Minor pro leagues over here only stay in business if they operate in a restricted geographic area. We could never operate rugby on a national basis.

IMO we should start with a four team league on the west coast with two Canadian and two American teams and see how it goes. Logically, a west coast league would be the place to start.

Somebody mentioned Winnipeg's minor league baseball team. It draws 6,000 per game because they offer an affordable complete entertainment package. I am not sure how many potential rugby venues in Canada would offer the amenities of Shaw Field.

I like the idea of a major junior league. However, it would be a money-loser and would have to be financed by Rugby Canada. Do they have the money?

Getting men's rugby on a national basis in the CIS is unlikely any time soon. But why not get them to authorize a national championship for 6 teams? IMO this is doable.

There have been privately run teams at CIS schools for years now (Lakehead hockey, Laval and Regina football). Rugby Canada and sponsors could fund a scholarship program and provide coaches, and possibly even travel subsidies. There are club-level leagues in Ontario and the AUS, which could continue. But a couple Ontario schools and one from the Atlantic could upgrade to the national super league. A French school in Quebec would be essential. Throw in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and you would have six teams.

IMO the best young players from across the country would aspire to be granted a scholarship at one of the super league schools. The rugby would be worth paying to watch. Each year it would produce graduates who would be ready to move on to pro.

Even without a pro league, a 6 team super league at CIS combined with a longer season for the CRC, would have quality rugby played in most major cities and would develop a steady stream of good players.

Posted 7 months ago #
Frank
Member

A pro league in Canada would only exist if it was played as a double header with the Lingerie football league. It would have to played like university BB, except in this case the women would get top bill and play after the rugby game.

Posted 7 months ago #
winger14
Moderator

As funny as that was Frank, SoH wins...

Winger14

Posted 7 months ago #
Frank
Member

It's not a competition with SoH, there is no one on this forum who is remotely close to that sense of humour. My comment is merely added value and it speaks the truth.

Posted 7 months ago #
side_step
Member

Moosehead said:
Same old same old, we need a pro league. We can't wait much longer. It has been 16 years since a lot of countries clubs turned professional.

Not only is pro rugby needed for high performance rugby in Canada but for recreational rugby as well. BCRN is reporting that some view the decline of BC club rugby to the mixing of recreational and high performance rugby at the club level and that a full time league outside of the recreational club structure is required (i.e. semi-professional/professional).

My idea will improve both high performance rugby and club rugby and if done properly will have a 75/100 chance of success vs. Harry's idea that will have a chance of success of 1/50000000.

Just thought I'd add the ref to BCRN article:

http://www.bcrugbynews.com/show_news.cfm?ID=625

Posted 7 months ago #