BCRugbyNews.com has up on its website analysis of its poll and a concern of the

Canadian Rugby Forums » General Discussion

BCRugbyNews.com has up on its website analysis of its poll and a concern of the

(29 posts)

Ad Bot

Posted 6 months ago
Moosehead
Moderator

Rugby Community over Administration Costs. Are the Costs of Administration at Rugby Canada too high? How would you manage Rugby Canada's approximate 4 million dollar budget, is the million dollar payroll too high?

Here is my budget

-outsource all admin work to India
-Bring back the Pride
-Bring back the Queen's University Training Facility
Keep the Wales program as well as this maybe beneficial

Stadium Mortgage (and office space) mortgage on 4 million
200,000

Salaries
President 75,000
National Team Coach 75,000 x2
U20 Coach 60,000 x2
Secretary x2 75,000
Marketer/Promoter 40,000 plus percentage of gate receipt and merchandise sales

Set aside some money to market CDI Premier League as a semi pro league, 150,000 top prize, Set aside $30,000 award for the top rugby volunteer in Canada.

Posted 6 months ago #
irishlock
Member

You appear to have forgotten to finance the existing debt....

Posted 6 months ago #
Ad Bot

Posted 6 months ago
Harry Craig
Member

Shouldn't money for CDI come from BCRU as it is a provincial league. Why will clubs from the rest of the country want to subsidise it.

Posted 6 months ago #
hornybee
Member

Because Harry it is the best league in the Country, maybe even the world!

Outsource all Admin work to India? Isn't it already in Wales?

Posted 6 months ago #
irishlock
Member

In all seriousness, it's nice to give opinions on an internet forum, but if you actually want something done speak to the representatives from your Union who will attend the AGM. They are, in effect, your elected reprensentatives....

Posted 6 months ago #
clivegibson
Moderator

Can we not retire the debt along with the people who created it?

Posted 6 months ago #
Ad Bot

Posted 6 months ago
Frank
Member

Are the board members seriously trying to change the constitution so that they can stay in power longer? Isn't that illegal?

Posted 6 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

clivegibson said:
Can we not retire the debt along with the people who created it?

How do we do that Clive?

Posted 6 months ago #
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

Harry, the same way the Bolsheviks did in 1917, they had a revolution and then murdered all those in-charge.

May not be an acceptable solution but it worked for them for some 70 years. By that time all this group of posters will probably be in Depends of pushing up the daisies.

Posted 6 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

Hornybee, tongue is firmly planted in cheek I suppose.

Posted 6 months ago #
Ad Bot

Posted 6 months ago
Faust
Moderator

Didn't we have the agent of change in the early 2000's?

Here is a fact. Rugby is a sport in which we can learn from elite countries of the world, but Canada is an unique market that requires knowledge of people who could be our customers.
We need to learn how to market the game to us!!
Lacrosse did it, why can't we?

Posted 6 months ago #
Popo
Member

Faust as much as you make good points.... you got it wrong.

Rugby's problems in Canada stems from the fact that rugby insiders view rugby outsiders as customers.

One needs to think of people in Canada as participants, partners, people to be included in the game not a source of funds.

rugby suffers the worst of any sport in Canada of elitism and exclusivity....

It can be seen by the barriers to entry that are thrown up at every level...

If you want to improve rugby in Canada you need to get rid of the utterly ridiculous structure of Sub unions, unions, and clubs.

Structure leagues and levels of play based on merit and competition. Make it as easy as possible for new teams to enter, not hard.

Make it as easy as possible for new players to join and participate in the game. Which also means offering scaled down versions of the game...

Rugby is the only sport that is played the same way from recreation to professional level... every other sport in Canada is scaled back as you go from elite to recreation...

People who participate in sports tend to support those sports they participate in.

As long as rugby is seen as an exclusive sport by the majority and one that none of them will ever participate in there will be none or very little in way funds flowing from the majority to Rugby....

The biggest problem in rugby is still its inability to translate High School players to adult rugby... Which is due to its utter lack of options.

Posted 6 months ago #
Ad Bot

Posted 6 months ago
winger14
Moderator

Very true although I'd offer that the biggest reason that players do not go to clubs from schools is a lack of emotional attachment to the club(s) on offer.

In school it's easy to have reasons to join up, particularly if the school has a sense of identitythat the kids share in.

Extending that to a club is easier if the kids can be exposed to that club during the high school season, so that the bond / attachment can form.

To do that you need club bodies on the ground in the schools. Easy if club memebers are teachers, a challenge if they are not as job flexibility becomes more of an issue.

Posted 6 months ago #
Faust
Moderator

Popo, you are incorrect. If you rely on Rugby participant to sponsor the whole sport, then you are sadly mistaken. You need outside fans who do not want to play or work the grassroots, but just watch the game and enjoy.

The biggest issue is that they keep increasing prices of tickets and only attract the participants, instead attracting other spectators to the game. I do not play lacrosse, but I watch it. Other did the same and brought their kids to the game and guess what the kids are now playing it.

Since NLL has brought lacrosse to cities like Edmonton, Toronto, and Calgary, there is a boom in the number participants to the sport. Same thing can be stated for skating board in the 80's. MMA now. People watched MMA and now they are looking to participate. These organizations also market to younger generation with visits from the pro players to high schools and so on.

High School to club, you are correct. Some issue is this that you are competing with other sports and many with scholarships to Universities in which we lack in Canada. Look at the USA, the biggest club for the Eagles is a chiropractic school, Life University. We don't even have decent University program (although it is getting better). Japan markets its clubs through work and even offers incentives for time off to play.

Posted 6 months ago #
Popo
Member

Lacrosse was popular long before NLL especially in BC and Ontario.

Tonnes of people play Lacrosse all across Canada.

Just because you did not play it Faust does not mean it did not exist.

As for Skateboarding... was popular and around for a long time before big time contests and TV exposure.

Martial Arts were hugely popular before UFC came along.

the TV exposure has helped capture more interest but these sports made it to TV or a professional level because of an already existent huge base of people interested in the sports due to their participation in them at varying levels...

you are an exception....

It is not rocket science, people support what they know.

How does one get to know something, by doing it.

As for the High School to adult rugby issue, that is not rocket science either....

Clubs are only looking for high performance athletes and only care about the performance of their top team... while all other teams are the tackle dummy's and spare bodies for the 1st team...

Its quite simple really rugby in Canada does not give a rats ass about the 99% of people who are just looking for some sporting competition in their spare time. They do not want a lifestyle... other sports provide this rugby does not.

Its not all about high performance and scholarships and what not for people. Other sports recognize this but rugby does not.

Posted 6 months ago #
Moosehead
Moderator

Popo said:

Its quite simple really rugby in Canada does not give a rats ass about the 99% of people who are just looking for some sporting competition in their spare time. They do not want a lifestyle... other sports provide this rugby does not.

Its not all about high performance and scholarships and what not for people. Other sports recognize this but rugby does not.

If your interested in recreational rugby then set up your own recreational rugby league. I am sure clubs aren't going to stop you from doing that nor can they. So, all one really needs is people with the time and desire to set this up. This goes for mini rugby to adult recreational flag rugby. One does not have to wait for Rugby Canada to do it. As said it is not rocket science to set up mini rugby or any league structure it just takes a lot of time and effort.

Hockey Canada certainly is not involved in recreational or old timer hockey leagues. They split off the amateur end of hockey from the elite level hockey along time ago when Canada was doing so poorly in international hockey. This resulted in the creation of Hockey Canada which is dedicated to the elite level of hockey in Canada.

Rugby Canada needs to focus on the elite level of Rugby and other organizations can focus on the recreational game.

Once you have a conflict between elite and recreational it produces mediocrity. Just look at soccer in Canada with the Canadian Soccer Association having the men's team ranked something like 55 in the world with millions of kids playing recreational soccer. This is because there is no focus in their organization and too much conflict in their mandate which is the reason Canadian soccer has failed to qualify for the World Cup in 16 years.

Lacrosse

This was successful because they play in world class facilities. Rugby in Canada does not have this. They have no access to top facilities to start a pro league as Rugby games here are played in public parks. Too bad that rugby clubs in Canada were not forward thinking enough to build their own club grounds/stads as none exist in Canada except maybe Fletcher's Field and Calgary Rugby Park being the exceptions.

Posted 6 months ago #
Ad Bot

Posted 6 months ago
drewmacpherson
Member

Rugby is not for everyone, that's part of its appeal, but it is a great game which still has a huge potential for growth in Canada, at both the elite and especially the recreational level. The real problem is where to draw that line (between elite and recreational), and who controls/administers it. Rugby in Canada desperately needs a continuum of skill/size and intensity related game options for all, not a single option no matter what your interests/ability. For example there should be a non contact version/s of the game for all ages, as there should be an elite branch for all ages (an unapologetic elite level). A much more discernable way as to who manages what regarding rugby in Canada and why, would be a great step forward.

Posted 6 months ago #
Faust
Moderator

Popo, Lacrosse was popular as Senior B hockey and field lacrosse was even less so. When Calgary and Edmonton received franchisesin NLL, the minor lacrosse BOOMED here. People who never even knew about lacrosse started to play or have their kids play. Having an elite team in the area encourages grass roots sports to grow.
Again wrong.

Skating Board boomed when received affiliation to music scene and they transformed. Video and magazine pushed the sport from South Californian land surfing to a world wide.
Again Wrong

Martial arts was popular, but look at it now. It is marketing dream and clubs/dojo are popoing up everywhere especially ones that MMA, not just Martial Arts.
There are a gyms affiliated with Golds who train for MMA.
Again Wrong

As said, we have millions of kids in Soccer and that has not transferred to elite level. But we will see what the professional game does in Toronto.
BTW the last time we were in the World Cup is when we had a good professional program in Canada.

Posted 6 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

What good proffessional soccer set up did we have in Canada in the early to mid eighties?

Faust
BTW the last time we were in the World Cup is when we had a good professional program in Canada.

Posted 6 months ago #
hornybee
Member

Jesus Harry,
Even I know it was the Blizzards of the NASL, they folded in 84 or 85. They were huge. Maybe you were still Wandering out in Ajax and didn't know much about Toronto.

Interesting though how the NLL have had trouble keeping franchises going.

Only problem is I just don't see a professional game anytime soon in Canada, How do you define Elite I guess. I do like the attempt to broaden the top league here in Ontario through local cable shows.

Posted 6 months ago #
Ad Bot

Posted 6 months ago
Popo
Member

"Skating Board boomed when received affiliation to music scene and they transformed. Video and magazine pushed the sport from South Californian land surfing to a world wide."

Faust's opinion not fact

"Martial arts was popular, but look at it now. It is marketing dream and clubs/dojo are popoing up everywhere especially ones that MMA, not just Martial Arts.
There are a gyms affiliated with Golds who train for MMA."

Faust's Opinion not fact

Sure in Alberta Lacrosse was not Big but in BC (especially Victoria and Vancouver) and Ontario Lacrosse has been huge well before NLL and without NLL.

Faust I don't mind when people call me wrong when they have actual facts.

Again I say because you didn't notice it or do it, does not mean it did not exist or was not popular.

But thats alright your a rugby guy who in my experience tend to be very narrowly focused and oblivious to what goes on outside of rugby.

And to correct a couple of your misconceptions... Skateboarding has always had a strong affiliation with music and counterculture. Sure it might have had its origins in California but that is about all you got right. Skate boarding in my opinion is hugely popular because it is easy participate in it... grab a board and away you go...

Dojo's have always been around and popping up everywhere. have you been buried at the bottom of ruck for 20 years.

"As said, we have millions of kids in Soccer and that has not transferred to elite level. But we will see what the professional game does in Toronto.
BTW the last time we were in the World Cup is when we had a good professional program in Canada."

I disagree with you here Faust, I would say Canada has a hard time making the world cup in soccer more due to the fact that there are 100's of countries who play the sport at an elite level that makes qualifying for a 32 team tournament every 4 years quite difficult.

There are vastly greater numbers of countries who participate in soccer at an elite level with only 32 spots available for the WC every 4 years.

In rugby there are 10 countries who are elite at rugby than there are 10 more who take it somewhat seriously than there are all the other countries who really are neither here nor there.

And to clarify for some of you others, I am advocating for some inclusive options to rugby in order to get more people involved and interested in the game so they will support programs that develop the game and the players in Canada.

What I am against right now is the attitude that has been clearly displayed by many of the responses to my original comment which is to keep promoting exclusivity, more of the same of directing resources to a select group of players and begging for handouts from the same people that they do not seek to include in the game.

What kills me is that there are so many people who would love to give rugby a try but the existing rugby community has not time for them other than their wallets as well demonstrated by Fausts comments.

Rugby is a simple game and is a joy to play too bad its potential is stifled by those who only see "ELITE"

Posted 6 months ago #
Popo
Member

One last thing Faust...

I would say Soccer is a very strong, stable, and successful sport in Canada given the high level of participation which provides a foundation of support for 3 successful pro franchises.

Posted 6 months ago #
Faust
Moderator

Popo, really where are we ranked in the world?
I say that we only made a recent gain when we had elite aka clubs in Canada.

Let us go through your other statements. Because you have posts zero facts to back your stance. I mean zero.

Facts, on Skate Boarding-

skateboarding would go through another growth phase. This time the cycle peaked around 1987 after skateboarding had directly influenced international culture ranging from the hard-edged punk style of music that most skaters preferred to the baggy, earth-tone clothes and retro tennis shoes that skaters wore.

See videos by bands like Suicidal Tendencies and such. Through mediums like Much Music and MTV , kids saw their fav band in skateboard videos. Do I have to take you in a time machine to see it? Any old punk from the 80's knows this. FACT

Gyms that are specializing in MMA. Ok check out Fight Nation who are franchising their product Gold Gym. Website
UFC opened up its first franchise Gym. Website MMAjunkie
NFL Football players are using MMA as offseason training. The leading tackler for Minnesota Viking was training with (i believe Couture). Ultimate Fighter had several ex football players -Back issue Inside MMA on HDnet
Examples recently joined
Matt Mitrione
Rex Richards
Brendan Schaub
Wes Shivers
Herschel Walker
Michael Westbrook

Edmonton Lacrosse has sent several players to elite couture in Las Vegas- Fact

Dojos are not MMA. We are talking a global empire. T-shirts, TV deals, bobble heads, PPV, and international force. Besides the Olympics, when did you see Martials Arts broadcasted on TV? When could an average joe name an elite Martial Artist (besides an actor).

Lacrosse, local lacrosse expanded so quickly that they were trying to take over the Calgary Saints fields or negotiate to put a Coverall dome in partnership with the Saints. Saints were at that time struggling financially and lacrosse was running out room with increased interest.
Even when CRU was thinking about putting a dome in, Lacrosse was interested to putting in money for it, but they preferred to deal with the Saints. Don't believe ask Kevin Blanchette.

Soccer, as Hornybee stated, we had more success in 80's when we had professional clubs in North America. Whitecaps and Blizzard helped pushed the quality in Soccer even when membership was low in comparison in Canada.
Also, look at the impact of the Soccer World with the USA.

Popo, Rugby needs to be sold to general public and stop going back to the same old players to fork out $40-125 to see a game. By getting the general public involved, then we show the sport potential. That is why NZ played Australia in Japan last year. Some fan will take his coworker to the game and he will get hooked and then take his son the next time. Then he will emulate the hero he watched. Golf boomed with Tiger Woods. Hockey opened in the USA, because Bobby Orr and then Wayne Gretzky. Yes, they were reasonably popular , but they never had the boom to people who never thought of playing the sport and they were in the news day after day. Even Lacrosse which was only mentioned when Minto Cup was happening, now it is the news more frequently.

Why couldn't the IRB put a 6 Nation game in New York or Los Angeles?

You can disagree with as much as you want, but if you do not see the game at an elite level and with the right marketing, then you will not attract outside/new fans. New fans = New players.
If you think that we have gone down this road, then tell me one time in Canada where we actually professionally marketed an elite game that would attract interest to general public in a good way.
If not, try to name one time that Rugby tried to escape the boundaries of trying to market itself outside of the confines of its own community.

Again, I have posted facts, you have posted opinion.

Posted 6 months ago #
Faust
Moderator

The most successful NLL franchises are in the USA, not Canada. Do I need to pull up stats for you?
Colorado, Rochester, Philadelphia, and Buffalo have been more stable than the Canadian franchises.
It is not opinion, but fact.
The issue about financial health of the NLL is that they expanded too quickly and too many shady owners.

We have the facilities in North America to have a Heineken Cup, 6 Nation game, or so on. If the NHL can play games in Europe, why can't Elite Rugby teams play exhibition games here?

the key is to generate positive interest and maintain it.

Posted 6 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

hornybee said:
Jesus Harry,
Even I know it was the Blizzards of the NASL, they folded in 84 or 85. They were huge. Maybe you were still Wandering out in Ajax and didn't know much about Toronto.

Hornybee there you go again with your Toronto centric approach. (you and I know it it is the centre of the universe, but our BC and Alberta friends don't) I remember the Blizzard, I even remember the Metros-Croatia who beat Minnesota for the cup in 76. The Blizzard were big for a while, not huge and as you point out they folded. I hope we don't get something like the old NASL for rugby because it was a failure. Give the MLS a chance and see how they do, it seems to be a better ecomomic model than the NASL. If they do start proffessional rugby league here in North America will they release players for internationals and many other questions arise. Would help or hurt rugby to have a league that starts and fails.

I think my point was that we didn't have a good proffessional set up in Canada but we piggy backed on the one in the USA which might have been designed to suit their needs not ours.

Popo and Faust seem to be saying many of the same things but still disagreeing.

Then there is Mark Bryant in BC telling us we don't need anything better because we have the CDI BC Premiership which is the best club league in the world. Look out Stade Francais and Wasps, James Bay and Capilanos are coming.

Posted 6 months ago #
winger14
Moderator

Mark's Calendar got stuck in 1991.

Winger14

Posted 6 months ago #
Ad Bot

Posted 6 months ago
Harry Craig
Member

Don't get me wrong Mark does a great job with BC Rugby News, but I don't have to agree with all his opinions.

Posted 6 months ago #
Popo
Member

Faust I am sorry I missed your facts and still saw a lot of opinion.

I stated my view as opinion.

"skateboarding would go through another growth phase. This time the cycle peaked around 1987 after skateboarding had directly influenced international culture ranging from the hard-edged punk style of music that most skaters preferred to the baggy, earth-tone clothes and retro tennis shoes that skaters wore." - this hardly qualifies as a fact especially when you don;t cite your source.

"See videos by bands like Suicidal Tendencies and such. Through mediums like Much Music and MTV , kids saw their fav band in skateboard videos. Do I have to take you in a time machine to see it? Any old punk from the 80's knows this. FACT " - Yes skate boarding appeared in music videos but what does that prove? It might correlate to a boom in skate boarding but that does not necessarily translate to causation which is your opinion.

" Gyms that are specializing in MMA. Ok check out Fight Nation who are franchising their product Gold Gym. Website
UFC opened up its first franchise Gym. Website MMAjunkie
NFL Football players are using MMA as offseason training. The leading tackler for Minnesota Viking was training with (i believe Couture). Ultimate Fighter had several ex football players -Back issue Inside MMA on HDnet
Examples recently joined
Matt Mitrione
Rex Richards
Brendan Schaub
Wes Shivers
Herschel Walker
Michael Westbrook"

Um sure there are gyms that now specialize in MMA but I ask you what makes up MMA? could it be the martial arts, which have been around for how long? Last time I checked some martial arts enjoy Olympic status which means they are undertaken in at least 90+ countries. Yes the UFC which is a fight promotion has had huge success in the last 10 or so years and there are more gyms now that specifically train fighters in multiple disciplines but those disciplines in some cases have been around for hundreds of years and have been very popular in many countries as evidenced by Olympic status (Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Wresting, Boxing etc.) , NCAA designation (wrestling), and so on. MMA had a huge built in audience ready to go before they even hit the airwaves... there was nothing new just a professional venue for people who did not have one previous (wrestlers, and various other martial artists) and that is only in North America.... In Asia MMA was hugely popular in a professional context well before UFC with shoot fighting and the K-1 events to name a few.

Point is MMA took off cause there was a huge audience of people already in place of which many already participated in some form or other.

and the other point is your example is another example of correlation not causation and the causation is your opinion.

As for your lacrosse example sure I will give that one to you... there may well be a causation effect due to the placement of NLL franchise in Alberta... but it does not change that fact that without an NLL franchise, Lacrosse is a big sport in BC and has been for over 50 years and the same goes in Ontario.

As for rugby in Canada we have been trying various forms of the elite model for over 10 years and have dropped down the international rankings like a rock....

I see our disagreement stems from one single idea and that is I believe that people become fans of things they participate in and can relate to. Where as you believe people become fans of things they cannot relate to and do not participate in.

My opinion is that money should be spent on developing the game of rugby not an elite few where as you believe money should be spent on developing an elite few and not the game.

I believe that the best way to expose the most people to the game of rugby for the least amount of resources is through getting them to participate at some level where as you believe spending huge sums of money on marquee games and leagues will attract people who have no experience to the game and convert them to participants.

My desire is for rugby to be played by all and enjoyed by all and i see the best way of doing this is by getting people involved in the game, not excluding them. Which is currently done by high registration fees, high club dues, horribly structured leagues, clubs that only seek top level players and don't develop from within (see any Vancouver Island based club, see BC Rugbynews for a couple of great examples), Stringent entry requirements for new teams and so on.

Posted 5 months ago #
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

Well now that you two, Faust & Popo, have told us everything we did not need to know about every other marginal sport on the map what is your collective opinions as to how to fix rugby in Canada.?

Skateboarding is encouraged by parents because they can kick their kids out the door with a board under their arm and be gone for hours sometimes days.

Lacrosse has gone through more Renaissances or resurrections than any other Canadian sport. It is a nostalgic heritage thing. And, when it cannot support TV coverage it will be buried awaiting the return of the angels to roll back the stone from the sepulchre.

The new phenom of UFC or MMA is the current trend and it will evolve as has all fight and wrestling TV productions have in the past. Will it stay around, probably. Pity!!

Does any governing board of rugby here in Canada have a clue as to what would have happen and what it would cost to turn rugby's growth predicament into positive and significant sustainable growth?

I doubt it. If so, surely some one would have lucked onto it. But there again we would have to toss up between abandoning the iRB and foregoing their hand outs and having faith and confidence in ourselves and the game to collectively work together all across Canada and devote our time to improving the quality of club league rugby.

How would that come about you ask? Through of all things having player pools where every position on every club team week in and out throughout the playing season when every team shirt is seriously competed for.

That will come about in the same time frame as it will take to build that solid foundation of rugby family commitments through exploiting the benefits, fun and healthy competition amongst our 5 - 14 year old elementary community school kids.

There is probably one of them just down the road from where you are sitting, an elementary school that is. Right now we have literally thousands of such pools of potential growth of between 200 - 300 eager and excited little buggers all primed to be out there or in a gym, just loving the throwing of the ball around and running endlessly, boys and girls, for hours.

Simple folks! Just take a step back and decide is it better for you, your friends and all of your clubs to play better domestic league rugby and have your memberships full than investing the next 3 RWC cycles beating your heads against the proverbial brick wall to be still standing at best in the current 14th. position in the World and still be losing 3 out of every 4 International Test that we play, blowing a bundle and the future of domestic rugby.

Though decision!

Posted 5 months ago #