Impact for Canada U20 (JWC relegation to JWRT)

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Impact for Canada U20 (JWC relegation to JWRT)

(27 posts)

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Posted 1 year ago
Rugbyball
Member

With Canada not making the Top 12 at this year`s JWC tournament, it means they will have to compete in the World Trophy next year.

This change to the rules of the JWC will really knock back the development of rugby in Canada (and will have negative impacts for Japan, Italy and Uruguay who are also `relegated` and join Canada in the 2nd Tier competition next year.

It is very disappointing that RC agreed to these changes (2-3 months before the start of the JWC) and that the change was only announced once the tournament started. Maybe RC had no choice, but they must have known it could have had negative consequnces for the U20 team (they had a tough group with Australia, Wales & Tonga)

I understand the cost issue of having a 16 team tournament in these difficult times - but there must have been other options to save money than relegating 4 teams rather than just 1. (Holding the tournament in Japan for a start was not the cheapest option!!).

That said, Canada will now go from playing the likes of Wales and Australia to playing the US and Kenya... No disrespect intended, but all teams need to play the best to improve (whatever the final scoreline!).

So, this is not good news in my opinion for the future of our game.

Does anyone knwo where the 2010 JWT will be held (Kenya was the venue this year!)?

Posted 1 year ago #
irishlock
Member

To be honest I think it could actually better for our players to play in competitive matches rather than be on the wrong end of an ass kicking from Australia & Wales. Same with the NSMT. I think they are getting better experience from playing Georgia etc rather than the drubbings they took from Wales and Ireland last fall.

Posted 1 year ago #
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Posted 1 year ago
Kilts
Member

Wondering out loud. How much longer does "Murds" get to coach this team? It`s time to move on, the High School buddy mentality obviously doesn`t work. It`s time for the NSMT method where it is all business and there are some expectations. Has to be a line drawn between facebook buddy and coach. What has he won? High School Championships? With the recruiting that is done at SLS a monkey could have won the gold. Move on!

Posted 1 year ago #
Spinpass
Member

kilts, no one can question the commitment shown by Murdy, Hyde Lay and co. over the years, however, maybe you have a point....so also wondering out loud..

maybe it is time for a change - some may feel that Hyde Lay and Murdy are too entrenched in the SLS/domestic scene to work with the players on developing their skills to the next level.

Those close to the set up may also question the style of play being coached. Flair players will struggle to show themselves in what some regard as a very negative system of play.

Japan was disappointing (although the changes to relegation really screwed Canada up) - and you have to ask what can this coaching team do from here?

They have done a really great job - but I reckon it is now time to change the coaching set up at U20 level - to move on and to get some new ideas (and I reckon to go outside Canada for a new coach). Other nations have coaches who have coached at the very highest level running their U20 set ups. We now need to do the same.

Posted 1 year ago #
lovethegame
Member

I don`t know if the RC has the money to go outside Canada to find a new coach, but in Canada two names that come to mind are Gary Johnston or John McMillan.

As far as Murdy being entrenched in SLS he didn`t tour with them last year so he could stay home at the U20 camp. The day of the high school championship final for the last two years was I think the same day the U20 headed for the U20 world cup. I don`t think he is fully entrenched in either programs. And how could he be when they run at the same times of year?

And yes Kilt it is time for "Murds" to at least give the appearance of all U20 players having a chance to make the squad on a level playing field and not have to read "Murds" facebook posts to the few favorites that seem to have already made the team.

Posted 1 year ago #
Rugbyball
Member

lovethegame - what have Gary and John achieved to be candidates in your view?

Posted 1 year ago #
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Posted 1 year ago
lovethegame
Member

Gary coached the CSMT at the world cup, he has played and coached JBAA to many many Canadian Championships, he built the rugby program at Oak Bay High, he coached the U19 mens team until it was rolled into U20, he is also in the BC Rugby Hall of Fame. That is off the top of my head I will google him and see if there it more.

John I don`t know quite as well but I do know that he was the right hand man at the Pacific Pride when it was still around and I believe he was an assistant coach with the CSMT. He has coached the Crimson Tide in BC and continues to guest coach with many teams including RMC.

I am not saying that Gary or John are the ones as there are many many other coaches in Canada that could fill the job, why go outside of Canada.

Posted 1 year ago #
Spinpass
Member

Sorry, I believe it is time for a change.

Time for some new ideas, a new approach and style of rugby. No disrespect intended to the curent coaching set up, but in sport change is needed on a regular basis. The time is now.

Rugby Canada needs to look outside Canada for a new U20 coach. At the U20 level the team they had last year was probably stronger than the year before but didn't achieve as much at the JWC. Why?

Two reasons for this in my view.

1. The rest of the world are progressing faster - so our 1 step forward was lost with other nations moving 2 steps forward.

2. The style of play coached is too structured and does not alow for any spontaneity. Rugby is not like football and you can't do everything by the playbook. There is not enough flair and creativity in the approach to the U20 set up - too much effort is spent trying to contain the damage of the opposition and not in trying to score themselves. The physicality is there - what is needed is creativity.

Time for a change - and it's time now to look outside Canada!

Posted 11 months ago #
newbie
Member

Yes Spinpass it may be time for a change but what kind of money and where is it coming from to go outside Canada to get a coach for U20?

What would you do fly in the coach for the one or two camps the U20 have before tourneys?

Would this coach from outside Canada be a full time job?

Unless Rugby Canada has a sugar daddy to fund a coach outside of Canada for the U20 I think we must look inside Canada, but I agree it is time for a change.

Do you think if the current coach is replaced that SLS would withdraw the use of its facilities?

Posted 11 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

No.

Posted 11 months ago #
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Posted 11 months ago
newbie
Member

Me either

Posted 11 months ago #
T-Max
Member

Hey everyone,

I'm a longtime follower of Canadian rugby on the international level and a first-time poster.

I think that in order to progress, our U20 national team will need a coach that is from a world rugby power (ie: New Zealand, Australia, England or Ireland) so that he (or she) can objectively assess our national talent without being tied to national, provincial or regional commitments.

My question is this- does anyone know how much it will cost the Canadian national rugby program to employ such a coach on a full-time or part-time basis? Any ideas or insights would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much!

T-Max

P.S.: I agree that it is more productive for our U20 teams to play against the likes of the lesser world powers for a while (and hopefully sample some aspect of success against them) instead of going out and being pasted by teams that are clearly out of our league (ie: Australia, Wales) that we likely won't be able to compete with under our current setup.

Posted 11 months ago #
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Posted 11 months ago
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

Well Welcome T-Max to the site.

First of all let us see what the real issues are. It is essentially the same for our u20s as it is for the men's national team. Canada is playing amateurs while the countries that give us a whopping are full time professionals.

Secondly, the only pathway to the Canada u20 team is through the Provincial Rep team programs, of which the logistics of scouting independently are a nightmare.

Travel expenses would cost more than the salary of such a qualified coach as you are suggesting.

A full time imported coach with at least the minimal credentials of our exiting NSMT coach would be the same, well into $150,000.00 a year.

We only play rugby, even with the split East & West seasons about 6 months at best such an asset [coach] might be tempted to be put on a six month retainer for $60 - $75 thousand depending if he is married / whatever and has family obligations. Bear in mind in such a scenario this individual will probably only sign on for one six month contract at a time.

There goes continuity of the process. Next, which age grade should be scouted,selected and invited to the training camps? I would suggest the no brainer of u16s and u18s as well as those that have graduated to the u20 intake in the due course of time. It would seem that such a coach would have to have in place a infrastructure of domestic scouts that understand and can clearly interpret what the coach is looking for and requires for the u20 to participate successfully in some level of iRB competition.

Provincial coaches like school coaches bring with them inherent biases and agendas. This is a subjective issue but where do you come across those with the "right stuff" for this job and all costs covered on a volunteer basis within an expense & travel budget only out of say the other half of the coaches annual salary.

Then, our new professional coach could have six months working with and between the u20s and the pathway of the two other age grades. That way all of his candidates participating in such an academy will be well grounded in the coaches strategy, have upgraded their skill weaknesses, developed the essential ability to read the field / opposition and react/ execute accordingly with equal speed as our current world wise u20 professionals are so capable.

Costs? Let us dream a little here.

Coach & expenses (six months) $ 150,000.00
Selectors (Expenses only) 60,000.00
Camps 3 x 5 days u16s [30 players]
3 x 10 " u18s [ " " ]
Six Months u20s [ " " ]
($70.00 p/d p/p inclusive of assist coaches & staff 260 days.................................. $ 18,200.00

Players , assist coaches, managers and medical staff included

Flights let us say avg $458.x 9 flights x 90
players & staff ....................... $ 37,098.00

Well let us see what that totals up to $265,298.00 per yr.

Not bad "if" !!! But R.C. does not have that kind of Dollars slushing around in their loose change pocket.

Tough, though as much as we want to succeed we are perhaps stoking the wrong engine and expecting too much in return with in a totally impossible time line.

The iRB dictates where it spends it RWC profits. Where would that be? Well of course, where they surmise they will get the best bang for their "$".

It will surely not be on advertising and reaching out to those that are not already "the converted". Nor, will they take up the support of Women's rugby seriously until there is a real push on for a major women's world cup of soccer with TV rights and global coverage. In this regard they will gladly sluff - off the fiscal support of the women's game to the various Olympic Games committees around the world de-emphasising the 15s game for women to the 7's.

In the meantime they (iRB) operate on the economic drip down theory to water, fertilise and hopefully grow or at least sustain the male gender version of junior / youth rugby around the world. Those nations with strong programs and large gate receipts from their home Test matches will continue to grow well funded and prepared u20 JWC & JWT squads and nations in circumstances similar to Canada's an amateur rugby nation will continue to wallo at the bottom end of any such world competitions.

Glad you asked T-MAX .

Posted 11 months ago #
PushOver
Member

Mr. Tiger,

I agree with you 100%! The only problem I have with your summary is this.

As true Canadians we always blame ourselevs for our situation. Teir II Rugby forever!

The one thing we don't have are Investors in the program. Tell me how New Zealand has the endless amount of cash flow... Fans.

5 million die hard rugby fans. Each of those Fans are an allblack. They buy into the team and spend money to support their team.

How do some european football firms do their business?

Some teams allow their fans into the fold? They allow the fans to buy into the program.

One thing I'm sure of is this. The United States will bypass Canada in the next five years if we don't start to figure out the financial burden we need to be sucessful.

I.E. Why buy a Hockey Team in America no one wants.... Cough, Cough.

Rugby Canada, needs sales men!

Hello Mr. Basille,

Guess what I have for you today..

For 1% of the total amount of Money you plan to spend on the Pheonix Coyotes. You can invest in a Canadian amatuer sport that is about to turn Olympic.

I know what your thinking a business man looks for return on the investment.

Here is the payout.

A) He has legitamacy in the world of sport. He invested in a team and turned them from #13 to Top 10 in the world.

B) I'm sure there is one area on the kit that could be filled in with the word "Blackberry".

C) "Blackberry" Olympic Push. Canada supports Canada.

You can see the Yanks starting to get organized. Once they become organized they will have endless cash flow. From who? Sportsmen. Ex. Rugby players NO. Ex pro football players, baseball players, Actors and Business MEN. Not because they love the game. But the potential they see in the game.

In Canada it is hard to integrate non rugby fans into the game. We don't air it on TV and the clubhouse is usually away from the city center. It will never change.

When Toronto Football Club or TFC replace the turf with natural grass which they will do soon. Canada Rugby needs to take this opportunity to play before a TFC game for Free, cut of the ticket sales, booze sales? Play a weak team.. Jamaica, Barbados someone we will run over. Let us show case the game to 20 000 fans on a winning point. It profiles the game and opens the window to new fans.

Fans that could potencialy invest in the future.

Posted 10 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

Reading an article on Rugby Canada website about the Summer Games it seems that Tim Murdy will be coaching Canada U20 next year or why would he have been there scouting.

Posted 10 months ago #
T-Max
Member

Hey Tiger,

Thanks for the reply- very helpful! I'm kind of sorry that I asked now- ugh. Lots of money at stake, lots of money that our national program doesn't have, which sucks, though I'm sure that I would have no problem cheering for Canada even if they had "Blackberry" emblazoned across their jerseys!

I like Pushover's idea of playing a rugby game before a TFC game (or after, since I doubt that the TFC brass would be too happy about ruggers ripping up the pitch for 80 minutes before the main event!) or at least seeking some partnership to allow our national rugby team to at least play at a decent venue that is marketable (and televiseable- TSN2, anyone?).

Ah well, it's definitely a frustrating situation with respect to our (lack of) funding, especially when compared to the traditional IRB powerhouses. I guess there's always the hope that some foreign higher-up with a good coaching resume will be transferred here for work or family or something and join our cause!

Hopefully the Olympics will help boost the profile of the sport in our great nation and people will start to get excited about it. That is, if CTV decides to televise the games, of course!

Take care,
T-Max

Posted 10 months ago #
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Posted 10 months ago
Harry Craig
Member

No way to fit a full size rugby pitch into BMO Stadium, or so I have heard. That didn't stop Scotland playing Canada on a narrow and short picth in Aberdeen last year, I think it was only 90 metres form goal line to goal line.

Posted 10 months ago #
Bandito
Member

Just read that Jordan Wilson-Ross is playing runningback for the Gee Gees this year. Is that him switching from rugby, or just something a little higher in profile given they only have a 'club' team for the men at U d'O?

Posted 10 months ago #
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

Jordon played football last Fall as well. He has a passion for football and the dream of being scouted by a pro football team.

One of his better friends from Alliston and the Barrie Hurricanes of the R.O. Jnr "A" team (u21), Steve Fievet also plays for the same Gee Gees.

If Jordon gets selected to one of the Canadian AR Cup teams and subsequently play for our NSMT he might stay in the game if scouted by an overseas playing offer were to come his way he may give it serious consideration.

Otherwise football is his ultimate dream game with a signing bonus . That is why he turned down a Sports Canada Card with R.C. last year. He likes the game and his mates but .....?

Posted 10 months ago #
Bandito
Member

Ahh ... fair play to him.

I only wish I had some of those abilities to showcase my passion for rugby as such. :)

Posted 10 months ago #
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Posted 9 months ago
bdotrugby
Member

RIM can sponsor until the olympics or major IRB events, then they don't allow the adverts correct?

Posted 9 months ago #
Rugbyball
Member

Has anyone heard any recent news about the U20 program?

It seems that the relegation from the World Championships has meant funding has been cut big time for this age group and if this is the case - this is very worrying for Rugby Canada.

It is OK to read about the U17 tour to the US - but what about the U20 age group - arguably a more important age group that we shouls be investing in for the future.

I fear the worse....

Posted 6 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

You won't have good U20s if you don't have good U17s.

Posted 6 months ago #
Rugbyball
Member

Good point Harry, but whilst we shouldn't forget the longer term - the U20 program has a very important tournament coming up next year (Junior World Trophy), where success there is needed to get us back into the senior tournament - the JWC - and back amongst the bigger teams.

A case of priorities from my point of view (especially given the reduction in funding) - and once again RC seem to have got it wrong.

Posted 6 months ago #
irishlock
Member

Just because there haven't been any press releases doesn't mean that nothing is happening. I imagine there will be a camp sometime soon and then likely some games in preparation for the JWT.

Why does everyone think they are entitled to know what is happening all the time on all fronts, and if they don't have that info then that automatically means someone has done something wrong or that nothing is happening?

Posted 6 months ago #
Harry Craig
Member

There was supposed to be a game in November for the U20s vs USA to qualify for the JWT but USA withdrew so there was no camp or game. I understand that USA have already been awarded next years JWT so if we don't win and get promoted in Moscow we will have to qualify against the West Indian teams for next years tournament. If we can't win that tournament we might as well give up now.

I didn't mean to suggest that the U17s should supplant the U20s, but one feeds into the other and if I had to drop one or the other for one year because of financial reasons it would be the U20s. Hopefully we can run both progams succesfully in the future.

Posted 6 months ago #
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Posted 6 months ago
Rugbyball
Member

I don't think, irishlock. that its a case of wanting to know whats going on on all fronts - but you have to admit - big tourney coming up and not much news about the U20's...how come?

I know funding has been cut and there hasn't been any camps for some time - so it is reasonable to ask the question?

That said - the JWRT will be a tough competition with Japan, Italy, Romania and Georgia challenging. So victory would be a far from done deal. Italy must be the favourites.

So I wonder who the U20 team will play this time around in preparation? Last year they went to NZ.

With funding issues this year, the cynic in me wonders whether it will be some domestically arranged fixtures as the only preparation.... I hope I am wrong - and they have plans to go to the UK or France.

Everything just seems to be deliberately quiet?

Posted 6 months ago #