Canadian Rugby Forums » Men's National Teams
Magical Thinking Replaces Skill and Determination
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Posted 7 months ago -
clyde
Member"WELLINGTON - A 79-15 loss to the New Zealand All Blacks wasn't the way Canada had hoped to exit Rugby World Cup 2011, but the spirit and belief of the team has surely won countless new fans."
I'm a little wary of folks who are fans of "belief". I'm a little sad that this kind of medieval thinking is on the rise as critical thought is overwhelmed by nonsense."Canada's defence has been strong all tournament, but on Sunday it was their belief and ingenuity in attack that was most engaging."
Somehow, I think that Sonny Bill and Conrad Smith rely more on their knowledge that they can play as opposed to a belief that they can score on decent opposition.
"Canada's defence was put to the test, but held fast as the All Blacks were forced to push the ball to the fringes or put it on the toe to score their points.
Throughout the half it was clear Canada was content to attack and that the belief was there that they belonged on the field with the All Blacks.
New Zealand led 37-8 at half time."
This reminds me of the old National Lampoon High School Yearbook.
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
Popo
MemberClyde you are completely off base in your assessment.
Yes, Belief as an argument for why something works over evidence to the contrary is poor critical thinking.
In this situation all that is being said is that people are liking Canada because they put forth effort, did not give up, and kept trying despite the obvious facts that they were being outplayed.
What would you have Canada not even step on the field and try because all the evidence points to the fact that the All Blacks are a better team. Canada should have conceded victory before even playing the game?
You are being ridiculous in your application of skepticism and critical thinking. Its like you are first year student who just learned about critical thinking in science 101 and are going overboard in the application of the concept.
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
clyde
MemberIs that what it's like, Popo? Back in the day, when shamateurism ruled in international hockey, Canada quit sending a team to the Olympics since all of the best Canadians were pros and the Canadian team couldn't compete with the Soviet miltary officers who couldn't field strip an AK-47 but could skate at top-speed with no laces, or the Swedish auto-workers who never set foot in a factory. Trying against the odds is an admirable human characteristic. In this case though, the ideal is competition and not participation. It's the World Cup, not intramurals. The Canadian team is not competitive with the top teams, and is extremely unlikely ever to be so. So feel free to say I'm ridiculou and off-base without explaining how you came to that conclusion. If a team in the CFL gets pasted like Canada did by New Zealand, heads roll because the teams are supposed to win. In the World Cup, SA, NA, AU, FR, EG etc. go to the tournament to try and win it. Why does Canada go?
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
Popo
MemberClyde the only thing I have to say about your response is that it has nothing to do with what I was talking about in my comment.I am saying your off base in your application of critical thinking.
If you want to discuss whether or not Canada should be involved in the World cup than we can discuss that.
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
clyde
MemberPopo, your post exemplifies my point. I referred to the fact that the belief of the Candians was mentioned three times in the article, as if belief is somehow central to the competitive skill of the team. You have twice expressed a sentiment without making a fact-based argument. But hey, your belief in your assessmen is really admirable. Where do I send the cheque?
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
winger14
ModeratorBelief is central to the competitive skill of a team. Absolutely and completely.
Take 2 teams of equal skill and the one that believes in themselves and each other will have the better performance, and likely, the result. And at times it can help to elevate a performance individually and collectively.
Confidence, trust and belief.
Every time.
Winger14
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
Toothlesstiger
ModeratorWinger and Popo, Clyde is right on the point. I watched the lads in that final game, sitting in the in-goal are I could see that the lads played as Clyde described, as if they belonged on the same field. They played with pride with the intent to score as many points as they could as opposed to being caught up in the game plan of minimising the size of the NZ score.
In the opening of the game the Canadian kids, and that is not a derogatory remark, they made every effort to stop the All Blacks to get into their rhythm and when they would have to inevitably face the juggernaut attack that a team like this All Black team brings to all of it's games these past 4 seasons.
The Canadians repeatedly mustered under their posts more frequently than their personal feelings of self respect could handle. I saw Cudmore taking the lead following the 1st try in the second half and he tried to rally the lads. Following the second and third tries the lads had despair and pain in their eyes.
I think that they earned the respect of some of the All Blacks for the brave and gallant re-running of the "charge of the light brigade"
In the last week of the round robin it was palpable the feeling that the minnow nations were trying amongst themselves not be the bottom team of the totem poll with the largest point against result.
Canada did itself proud. Should it have been in this position? I say No, but the iRB and RWC needed these 4 - 5 national teams to justify running such event for no fewer days than the soccer world cup runs. The iRB and RWC need the extra games for TV contracts, advertising revenues and a level wider world awareness . Our team and others are simply filler for the round robin part of the tournament.
The Canadian players acquitted themselves remarkably. The solutions lies not with the players or their coaches but with Rugby Canada and it's Board members and long overdue past it's best buy date of their Administration and their dealings with their masters, the iRB and it's RWC committee.
I can only hope that Clyde will continue to take this interest in the game and that with his critical thinking on the subject will be favourably received and acted upon by you the rugby fans, it is afteral only a game or entertainment.
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
winger14
ModeratorToothless,
Just watching the Wales Ireland match, and I see my point being illustrated. Two teams of equal skill. Wales have belief in each other and themselves. Ireland lost the plot somewhat.
Canada was outclassed pure and simple vs New Zealand, just as we would outclass them on the ice. Belief will only get your so far when the gap is that large.
Winger14
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
cdnrugbyfan
MemberCan't trust the French to do anything right....including lose!
Posted 7 months ago # -
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Posted 7 months ago -
chabaleatschildren
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chabaleatschildren
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clyde
MemberNo question Toothlesstiger, that the Canadian team belonged on the same field with NZ. In any high level competition, the wider the margin of score, the more appropriate the match-up. That's why it's likely that the Calgary Flames will sell off their roster and replace the players with koala bears so that fans can admire the pluck and courage of the cute little critters. And I agree, kids is the best way to describe grown men. Chabal, I'm breathless with anticipation for your explanation of why France was undeserving of advancement to the knock-out stage. Which games did they lose that were not made public? Or is this just a pronouncement based on the morality of the competition?
Posted 7 months ago # -
winger14
ModeratorClyde,
Notwithstanding your entertaining wind up routine...France backed into the quarter finals.
The French have a bi-polar rugby team. Against England they were, at times, very good. Emile N'tamak, one of their coaches, acknowledged that dual nature. During their pool games they were inconsistent at best, and asleep at worst.
So did France deserve it? I would say no based on an underwhelming display in the pool games, as opposed to say Japan, Tonga and Canada.
That being said they will probably now win the World Cup.
And we'll all say: "Typically French"
Winger14
Posted 7 months ago # -
Popo
Memberclyde said:
Popo, your post exemplifies my point. I referred to the fact that the belief of the Candians was mentioned three times in the article, as if belief is somehow central to the competitive skill of the team. You have twice expressed a sentiment without making a fact-based argument. But hey, your belief in your assessmen is really admirable. Where do I send the cheque?I am not saying at all that belief is central to competitive skill.
I am simply disagreeing with your interpretation that belief has been mistaken for competitive skill in the article you mention. I am also saying you are woefully misusing critical thinking in this instance, which I already explained previously.
Belief in ones ability does not equate to magic as you assert. Testing yourself against the best does not equate to magic as you assert. In fact tests are central to critical thinking. AS you made these claims it is not up to me to prove them.
Posted 7 months ago #
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