What are the origins of Club rugby? « Canadian Rugby Forums

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What are the origins of Club rugby?

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Posted 2 years ago
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

I suppose rugby began in the schools and then passed through and adopted by the universities and this left the need for some place where you and your school buddies returning from their university as graduates were looking for some common place and group to continue their playing of rugby.

This obviously spawned many clubs as extensions of the original private schools churning out masses of FP teams "former pupils" and the rest is history.

But why did rugby in Canada originate from as a club system? A series of different social and cultural groups like the mining community in Cape Breton and Kingston and other military bases fielding teams of the militia, I guess this was what those Col. Blimps and mine managers were accustomed to when they came with their game to these fair shores.

To this day rugby in Canada relies oh so heavily on the resources of the high school programs and their in-house teacher / coaches.

Have we not yet come of age when we can let go of the school system hand and establish our own pathway for the continued growth and continuity of the game from grade 4 thru to grades 11 & 12.

Each new season is unpredictable for many reasons howver have you recently looked into a volunteer`s or coach and team managers eyes when they prepare to take on a neighbouring team and recognise a player whom he or she had possibly recriuted, coached and developed over the past couple of seasonswhile the player and the family have not relocated their home.

This is the time and the hour when rugby across Canada have to put in place, as in OFSSAA and hockey [ice] a program of restricted / protected recruiting and future player deveoplment areas surronding clubs.

In the case of OFSSAA it is strictly in place to discourage unscrupulous school coaches from poaching a good / great player away from one high school to play for the neighbouring school rugby program. I may be correct here, but could be corrected, in the case of a player and the coach are proved to have perpetrated this No! No! then the coach may be suspended for no less than a season and the player may likewise be suspended for that season he moved schools. It works for them, therfore why not at our sub or provincial rugby union.

The easiest way to define protected catchment areas is to define them by postal codes in relation to a given circumference around the club`volunteers would be encouraged and should be somehow rewarded for spending their energy and resources recruiting thoroughly within their own protected and defined areas more vigorously and effectively.

There are those clubs like most of them in Canada and other countries like us in the family of world rugby, operating off the "kitchen" table.

More than we want to aknowledge some of these clubs have little or no concept as to recriuting and sustaining their club and potential growth [ we all know of one or two in our own nick of the woods, we just do not do anything about them. These clubs seem to be content and bogged down in a hap hazard approach, frequently relying on the of nicking one and others better players at any age grade. In most cases the clubs are seriously directed by the sub or provincial unions to utilising the school rugby coach as a vacuum sucking up all the players who make the school team.

[This last option stymies recruiting because of the school team as opposed to an intra-mural program within the school, totally ignores the recreational rugby student who did not make.

These unfortunate casulties of lives little trials and errors generally drop into the school as possibly lifes recycle bins and process spits out either a candidate for another marginal sport or tradgically the alternative outcome, resulting in that student completely dropping out from sport and recreation.]

The postal code system would also define the same level of protection for the clubs big or small, premier in standing or competitive recreational at their high school level, continuity of player development and interest, participation now commeces from grade "4" through to grades "10" & "11" in our elementary schools.

Let us remember that we will not lose out in future recruiting of players to adopting the game at high school, because it will be ingrained in them and their parents bodies and minds from grades 4 at as many elementary schools that a club can sign up to a Flag rugby program within their protected area.

Yes, players will still be invited out by either your sub or provincial unions try-outs for the rep team programs. Those selected will get the very best of skills, fitness and dietary support as they progress along the pathway to that coming of age Jnr "A" [u20] time in Ontario where there is the inevitable parting of the wheat from the chaff, the elite from the recreational rugby players, the social recreational club/game or the premier league & Club Cup championship club .

Posted 2 years ago #
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Posted 2 years ago
Harry Craig
Member

Tradition and habit are hard things to break Oh Toothless One.

Posted 2 years ago #
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Posted 2 years ago
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

While ,
"Tradition and habit are hard things to break"

we cannot afford to let them stand in the way of getting it "better"

Posted 2 years ago #
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Posted 2 years ago
trentrugby
Member

This may sound niave but, is there a problem of clubs going into another clubs area and scooping up players? I have heard of some clubs doing it but I didn`t know it happened often. Is this the case?

Posted 2 years ago #
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Posted 2 years ago
Harry Craig
Member

How will you divide up the territory in Toronto or Ottawa where there are many clubs. Would current players be grandfathered in to there current clubs when this system came into effect. How would a player be able to move to a higher level of competition if needed. I`m not necessarily against change but there are many issues to be addressed for it to work. If I move to I have to change clubs.

Posted 2 years ago #
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Posted 2 years ago
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

It is excellent Harry that you are thinking and asking the questions.

They are real issues and can be solved with open and sincere discussion amongst the stakeholder. If we can get our heads around the significance and the last chance of expanding the participation levels.

In doing so we will establish a process / pathway for the overall betterment and securing of the growth and development of the players and the clubs from primary elementary schools kids aged 6 or 7 through to graduation of high school players 17 & 18

Posted 2 years ago #
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Posted 2 years ago
mdnolin
Member

I can`t speak for other provinces, but I can say that Saskatchewan has historically faced strong resistance from inclusion as a school sport, and if the clubs stopped running age grade programs for age grade rugby, the entire rugby system would break down.

It is the biggest thing holding growth of the sport back in Saskatchewan, as the club`s lack the infrastructure, members, etc. in most instances to take care of their own on field needs, let alone run vibrant age grade programs.

I don`t have any solutions to the dilemma just observations, so if any of you have constructive ideas for growth of the game at age grade levels in small markets where competition for green space and athletes is high, I would like to hear them.

Posted 2 years ago #
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Posted 2 years ago
Faust
Moderator

I thought it was from William Webbski running down the field with a Fat Albino Gopher.

Saskatchewan rugby has progressed hugely and people can love him or hate him, but Karl Fixx has done quite the job to promote the sport in Saskatchewan.

Schools are against Rugby, because the bad reputation it has being a "drunk idiot "sport. Little is known or promoted that many great people played Rugby including the last two American presidents.

Club rugby does not push its players to go higher in ranks. They rather keep their players and win a championship than see them try out for the Prairie Fire.

I think more promotion of the local NA8 should be pushed by local clubs, but I think NA8 team should help the off season training with the local clubs. It could be a win / win situation.

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Posted 2 years ago
Harry Craig
Member

I know Bush played rugby but I don`t know if I want to promote that fact.

Posted 2 years ago #
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Posted 2 years ago
St Dunstan
Member

Any time geographic boundaries are mentioned, the `offenders` raise the most objections and no one really pushes for their inclusion on the RO Game Regulations.

It is difficult to say to any player, no you cannot go play for this club or that club but how much sense does it make for players from Barrie or Peterborough driving into Toronto to play when there are clubs in those cities? If a adult player wants to play at a higher level, you cannot deny them that opportunity since no one has a contract to play.

But perhaps we can do something at the Junior level. Why not set geographically-based catchement areas for clubs in Ontario? We have four rough areas designated as Branch Union areas - sure there are some fussy boundaries and clubs move from one to the next but that is generally done in negotiation with the Branch Unions (Brampton, Crusaders, Belleville). Why not do it for high school players or those up to 18 or 20 years of age?

For example, there are over 140 high schools and about 600 elementary schools in Toronto. Not all of them play rugby or have had RO get around to introduce flag rugby (but Andrew is getting there!) but there are probably over 30 secondary schools and 50 elementary schools that do.

IF the Toronto based clubs really wanted to build the game in Toronto, then they would sit down over a few adult beverages - I will host at a local Duke and buy the first round - and sort the City into 8 areas ... and Harry that is easy to do by postal code or municipal ward ... that would mean a potential area to build, develop, and draw rugby players from that would include more than 15 high schools and primary schools! Each of those areas would be bigger than any other in the province.

We would need a huge increase in resources - coaches, referees, fields, volunteers, etc ... but I would suggest copying the Mississauga Blues or the Alliston Timberwolves models for community rugby clubs ... add in the Boys and Girls Clubs and the City of Toronto community / recreation centres ... there would not be a stronger rugby area in all of Canada - it would rival most areas in the UK or the Southern hemisphere.

This would mean, for example that all players from one area would be encouraged to go out for Club A that is focused on that area - who will get their people out to be community coaches in that area, to officiate games in that area, to support the Game in that area. If a player really really wanted to play for someone else, fine - but his buddies / school mates would be playing for club A.

How do we deal with teachers in one school who are members of a club in another area ... what about if you move? That is easy to deal with ... those housekeeping matters do not or should not block the idea of working together to build the game and not keep crossing swords along the way.

You could build super clubs around this idea - or regional rep teams .. there are plenty of benefits .. .not many to sticking with the parochial way of currently club building.

So, don`t tell me it can`t be done - of course it can - if there is really the mind to get it started and good people to see it through - without the territorialsim that now exits that serves no one.

Posted 2 years ago #
St Dunstan
Member

... that would mean a potential area to build, develop, and draw rugby players from that would include more than `strong` 15 high schools and 75 primary schools!`strong` Each of those areas would be bigger than any other in the province.

Posted 2 years ago #
Harry Craig
Member

I was never suggesting it can`t be done, just pointing out a few of the roadblocks along the way.

Posted 2 years ago #
St Dunstan
Member

They are excuses not road blocks ...

Posted 2 years ago #
Moosehead
Moderator

It sounds to me that you all want to create another form of bureaucracy in addition to the Provincial Unions and National Union. It is also seems to be modeling the soccer model in Canada which has done nothing for elite soccer in Canada. Canada is ranked what 85th in the world in soccer despite all the kiddies running around playing soccer (i.e. soccer daycare).

If I have an elite Rugby club that has top coaches and trains on a more regular basis, why can`t I recruit outside of any pre-defined area.

Its all fine to get youth playing Rugby but don`t fool yourself that this is a pathway to success. Why not replicate the system that Argentina has which is system that has worked in developing talent on the international level.

Posted 2 years ago #
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

Have you been to Argentina and if so have you visited their clubs and the club system. It reminded me of the colonial British setting up another Raj. Their senior most clubs a Country Clubs, and not on the same basis as our many local golf & country clubs. These clubs have deep money pockets , they may have rugby in their school system today, but they bemoaned when I visited them that was not part of their system.

In returning to the thread on the point you are suggesting that there is an attempt to establish another level of governance there is no necessity there is nothing further from the truth. It is all manageable as St Dunstan has alluded to, through the sub / branch unions with the aid of the postal codes of the elementary / primary schools or as suggested electoral boundaries.

If big clubs wish to protect their considerable investments in their youth and junior programs along with the necessary coaches etc. etc then they will have nothing to fear from this proven concept .

There is definitely a gap in the Canadian soccer program as it is not set up like the rugby model in terms of developing elite players and pathways. Their program is mother centric baby sitting twice a week looking cute chatting along the side line like a parents teacher alumni meeting. God with their membership being in the 800,000 range they had a heart attack at the idea of levying a $2.00 fee to support their national rep team programs.

Our Rugby template is not that stereotyped and even with the potential growth available through flag and youth rugby and the adoption of the geographic boundaries will not in anyway derail our thirst for international identity or glory.

It will establish more reliable stats and estimates for planning. The process of the geographical boundaries could be reviewed annually, every 4 years whatever by a working committee that would sit once a year or however many years apart to review schools closing or new population growth and settle any such boundary squabbles. It is not like we are fronting up for an Israel / Palestine round of peace negotiations.

It will yield long term benefits through the developing of virgin neighbourhoods into little hot beds of flag and mini rugby. The parents who are already familiar through the hockey and soccer programs will have confidence in the long term growth and sustainability of the program locally.

The very talented kids will with their parents fully embrace participating in thru R.O. junior rep team programs where they will learn additional skills which in turn they will naturally use when playing with his club mates. beyond the u18 age grade the junior player will be free to fly the coop. Just in time to settle in with the club that best suits his needs and expectations be it u20 or Jnr A , Ontario Blues or a RCSL u20 program.

Posted 2 years ago #
Moosehead
Moderator

So what was wrong with following and adopting the Argentine system again...? There clubs were well funded and high school rugby was part of their elite development system makes sense to me.

So we don`t have a pro league so mini rugby is our alternative solution. Elite development needs to start at 12 not 18.

Posted 2 years ago #
Toothlesstiger
Moderator

Then trying to explain the intended improvements to our beautiful game and the subsequent benefits there is no purpose in debating with you as you have focused the whole purpose of the game as a pathway to elite rugby and the NSMT.

You appear to have no ability to recognise that you are driving a wreck of a vehicle and refusing to look for advice and repairs before your brakes fail and off you and our future rugby programs will disappear over a side of a mountain.

Argentina has benefactors that pay for the development of their club players. Canada`s benefactors are few and far between.

The cost of sustaining an individual rugby player in Argentina is significantly lower than our carded players in Victoria can afford to live off.

They, Argentina have whole heartedly embraced their good fortune of their players playing in Europe while our fans group here in Canada absolutely abhor the idea.

Want to bet that you will see an Argentinian pro team in Italy or France playing in either the Magners League or the French Super 16 before Canada and the USA could come to the meeting of the minds and establishing a joint team out of the Principality of the Isle of Man where they could secure clear title to participate in all European competitions as well as the Magners League.

Moosehead, extract your nogging out of you other orifice and smell the roses.

Posted 2 years ago #
mdnolin
Member

To Faust, sorry for the delay in responding to your comments, I am not questioning Karl`s contribution to the sport, at home or nationally, I am pointing out that Saskatchewan schools do not support the inclusion of rugby, therefore, club rugby devotes their precious resources to the endeavour, and club rugby lacks enough resources to run club rugby properly in Saskatchewan, let alone age grade programs.

For years Saskatchewan has had the ability to field, an U-16 team one year, and not an U-18 team, the following years, an U-18 team but not an U-16 team, etc. not much has changed. Rugby has ebbed and flowed in Saskatchewan, but we have not been able to surpass 12 or 13 U-19 teams to choose from throughout the entire province. And I am unaware of any programs outside of Notre Dame or Lashburn, that have fielded junior and senior high school programs.

As to your comments about club teams preventing their players from playing for the National setup, I would have to question where you get your information??? As it seems absurd. The Regina Rogues have won 10 of the last 11 provincial senior men`s titles, and their only NSMT player was DTH, and it has been a long time since he`s suited up for the Rogues, by a long time, I mean sometime in 2006.

The only other two NSMT players currently playing in the set up are Dala, and Buydens from the Saskatoon Wild Oats. Dala has had qualification issues relating to obtaining his citizenship, plus his father was less than supportive of his rugby endeavours until he completed his degree from the U of S. Once he completed his degree, he relocated to BC, and played for CW, the Sevens squad, etc.

As for Buydens, he turned a leg of the NA4 once, in 2006 to play in the National Club Championships, and in fact he was scheduled to fly out to meet the team the Monday morning, except, RC booked his flight to leave from Saskatoon instead of Edmonton where he was at the time. I know because I was his roomate in Edmonton and his ride back to Saskatoon. Recently, Buydens has made no secret that he is committed to gridiron football, as he is a full scholarship player for the U of S Huskies, and he will complete his degree this fall and play out his university eligibility. He has rehabbed an ACL reconstruction, that saw him sit out spring camp for the Huskies, as well as, saw him miss the NSMT`s spring fixtures.

I watched him play two saturdays in a row, as he continues to condition himself for a return to the paddock, he played a club match 2 weeks ago against the Highlanders from Regina, and this past Saturday he played for the Saskatoon Wolverines (a prarie super league team) against the Prairie Fire.

For those readers interested, the Wolverines beat the Fire by one point, I believe, I wasn`t really paying attention to the score.

So, with all that said, I would wonder what makes you say, that club rugby doesn`t support elite rugby in Saskatchewan, for the past ten years, the two clubs who have supported the Fire the most, the Oats and the Rogues, also have supplied the NSMT players. Additionally, many other NSMT players have played for the Fire, Tkachuk, Franklin, Fairhurst, Pritchard, etc.

Cheers

Posted 2 years ago #
trentrugby
Member

The origins of club rugby.
In the Niagara area we have changed our approach to organizing and promoting flag rugby. First, we checked our tackle rugby club loyalties and egos at the door.
We then took the RFU model of a centralized organizing body that arranges advertizing, sponsors,tournaments/game day, registration days, coaches, referee and volunteer training, schedule making, maps for games, email trees, insurance, buying equipment and finding fields.

We took all of that work away from coaches and just let them coach.

We have been very lucky to have had so many people step to the fore and volunteer to be a coach or a director.

So, to continue, the RFU model has a central organizing body as the hub of a league and then they run the teams in towns or cities within a close proximity of one another. We now run in Grimsby, St. Catharines, Niagara-On-The-Lake, Port Colborne and Niagara Falls.

By pooling our resources and doing the same promotion in each city we have eliminted a duplication of work and have taken the burden of organizing off of the coaches.

Also, by setting up our league this way we have been able to eliminate poaching because we adveritise the Grimsby team in Grimsby not one of the other teams.

Has it worked? Yes it has. As of this morning we have 97 registered and insured players, 17 insured coaches, 9 insured Directors. We have had positive feedback from the parents and the kids seem very happy.

I hope this helps. I don`t know if this will work for tackle junior rugby. Good luck.

Posted 2 years ago #
Faust
Moderator

mdnolin, I know clubs personally have told that their they are not good enough to tryout for a Super league team and I know clubs who asked their players to stay back.

Guess what I had this discussion with players from the Rogues and Badgers including Dala. They all agree that there is a disjunction between the local Super League team and the club side. That the Super League team needs to work with the local clubs to build their talent and the clubs needs to send their best to Super League.
To build a strong NSMT side, all the clubs need to help, but to build a strong grassroots program, the NSMT has to show a strong local presence and direction.

Posted 2 years ago #
mdnolin
Member

I agree in principle with what you are saying, but you seem to either ignore the fact or not know that the Badgers RFC supplied several Prairie Fire players over the years, including Rob Belyk, Dan Patenaude, Vince Ashmeade, and more recently, Dave Patenaude. Rob and Dan quit playing elite rugby because of young families and careers, Vince is a sargent with the Saskatoon Police Force, and employment reasons curtailed his elite rugby. Dave found rugby later in life and was an asset to the Fire during his time with him.

What I am getting at, is for the first time, in the past 13 years, all the clubs playing in Saskatoon have coaches who were originally non-Canadian. I am not saying funny talkers are the way to go, but having coaches is a step in the right direction.

I attended the match on saturday involving the Wolverines and Fire, and more `old boys` from Regina attended the rugby than did `old boys` from Saskatoon. A fact which explains the lack of infrastructure.

You say you spoke to Dala about Saskatchewan rugby, but did you discuss the logistics of 7 players from Saskatoon, combined with 22 or so from Regina/Moose Jaw trying to form an elite team, whose home games are always in Regina. For the better part of its existence the Fire had one weekly practice in Craik, a small town an hour and ten minutes south of Saskatoon, supposedly equal distance from Regina.

With the exception of last year, I drove the majority of Saskatoon based players to and from practice in Craik for the past 6 years. Additionally, some of early Fire players, Aaron Baier, Dave Wilson and Cory Tran will recall driving all the way to Regina each week for practice.

I do disagree with your assertion that Clubs have held back the Fire, and I suspect you do not understand Saskatchewan Rugby very well at all. I see the addition of the Wolverines as a good thing for elite rugby in SK, which in turn will be a good thing for the BC teams, as the 8 or so quality games that are played in Saskatchewan during its season are insufficient to prepare a player for the NSMT. Saskatchewan`s best rugby talent will always move on to higher level competition elsewhere which is logical, what hockey player moves to England to improve his/her game on the ice?

Posted 2 years ago #
Faust
Moderator

This is not all about Sask Rugby and the Fire. I know clubs that have encouraged players not to play for the Super League. They are not Sask clubs, but when speaking with some Sask guys, they stated that some other teams outside the ones you mention will not support their players.

Wolverines maybe good for Saskatchewan, but it was bad for Edmonton. We have to get more from other provinces and cities like Quebec. Second largest Province and zero NSMT players. Compare that to Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, and Newfoundland.

Again, I think Saskatchewan is doing its bit to help out, but other places are not.

Posted 2 years ago #
Harry Craig
Member

The wolverines weren`t bad for Edmonton. The Edmonton Rugby Union, for reasons they don`t seem to want to share with anyone, decided not to play regional rugby so Northern Saskatchewan decied to enter a team in their place. How does this make the Wolverines bad for Edmonton. You have some strained, or non-existant logic in there somewhere Faust

Posted 2 years ago #
Faust
Moderator

Wasn`t the only reason that the Wolverines were pushed is that Edmonton decided to not have a team? That is what I got from the emails.
With a limited budget, the success of the Wolverines can be bad for the Gold. Hopefully Edmonton and N Sask can have a team. Manitoba has always been messed up.

Why is Quebec and Manitoba been lacking in sport of rugby in the national level?

Posted 2 years ago #
Harry Craig
Member

Edmonton is free to enter any time they want to.

Posted 2 years ago #

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What are the origins of Club rugby?

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